------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Winter 1999 CONFCHEM - ARCHIVE OF LISTSERV DISCUSSION, Nov. 7 - Nov. 12, 1999. Paper 1: "Teaching NMR Using Online Textbooks" by Joseph P. Hornak. Paper 2: "Making Connections Between Spectroscopy and General Chemistry. A Series of Practical Exercises" by Walt Volland. Papers available at: http://www.ched-ccce.org/confchem/1999/d/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 21:39:10 -0500 From: Scott Van Bramer Subject: SVB P1-questions I guess I'll start by providing my answers to the questions posed by the Joe Hornak at the end of the paper. How useful would these materials be for courses that you teach? What portions of the book would be most useful for your students? What portions of the book would be least useful for your students? What additional information would your students like to have? I teach an advanced spectroscopy course here at Widener and I was delighted to find this resource for teaching NMR. In the class, I am trying to teach both the fundamental concepts of how NMR works and NMR interpretation. This site presents the concepts at just the right level for this course. I am really excited because I have had a difficult time finding in a textbook at the right level. In addition, I also teach IR and MS in the course and I have been hesitant to have students purchase three books to get the level of detail I want them to have. In previous years I have photocopied a series of articles from JCE, but the introduction to NMR given in this paper is more on target for what I am trying to do in my course. I expect that it will be very useful and I intend to have my students use the entire text. I really like the interactive nature of the document, the way the figures and text work together. The use of animations really takes advantage of the computer's capabilities. In addition to the concepts covered in this document, the course I teach also includes interpretation. I set up a web site that includes spectra for the compounds and the types of spectra (DEPT, APT, COSY, NOESY, HETCOR, etc.) I use to teach interpretation. After the lecture, the students can work through the interpretation again on-line. This is on the web at: http://science.widener.edu/svb/nmr/data_1.html The first question I have for Joe Hornak is, how do you expect to use this workbook with your class? Since you have everything laid out, organized, and animated in this workbook in exactly the way you like to present the material, what do you do in class? Do you still lecture on the topic? Do you repeat what is done in the book? Or do you use the class time for other activities? In an upper level course, faculty often spend their time trying to help the students understand what the reading was all about. Adding the color commentary to the play by play from the textbook. But with a workbook like this, the color commentary can be placed side by side with the text. In a way that is what the animation/graphics window accomplishes in this document. Any thoughts? But the biggest question I have, is how do we share work like this? For traditional writing we have systems in place that assure quality control and distribution. If this document was written as a conventional paper it could be submitted to a textbook publisher or JCE, they would send it out for review, the reviewers would make comments and catch mistakes in the science, then it would be checked by an editor, it would be typeset. and the author would check the galley's, and finally it would be widely distributed. All these steps help to assure a polished and accurate presentation. So how do we accomplish these important functions on-line? Clearly this is a document that could be used in may courses around the world. The document is very well done, but how does the casual observer know that (how do we get quality control). Who helps the author fine tune the document? And finally, although anyone on the world can get to the web site, how do we know where to look? If I am looking for ideas on how to teach chemistry I know to look in J Chem Educ. But how do we do this on the web? Respectfully, Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Widener University, Chester, PA 19013 svanbram@science.widener.edu http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 21:38:59 -0500 From: Scott Van Bramer Subject: SVB: Begin Paper 1 discussion Good Morning, Today is Sunday November 7 and it is time to open discussion for Paper #1. "Teaching NMR Using Online Textbooks" by Joseph P. Hornak (jphsch@rit.edu), Rochester Institute of Technology. The paper is available on the ConfChem website at: http://www.ched-ccce.org/confchem/1999/d/ Respectfully, Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Widener University, Chester, PA 19013 svanbram@science.widener.edu http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:05:04 -0500 From: Joseph Hornak Subject: Re: SVB P1-questions Scott, Here are my answers to your questions and a few thought provoking comments. > The first question I have for Joe Hornak is, how do you expect to use this > workbook with your class? I use the hypertext book The Basics of NMR in three ways. First, as the required text book in an elective course on Pulsed NMR Spectroscopy. Students who take this course are typically seniors wanting to know about the nuts and bolts of pulsed NMR. Chapters are assigned in the book to read. In lecture, I present the material using a computer projection system (primarily to catch the audio learners) and provide new commentary. The second way I use the material is in a second year Instrumental Analysis course that covers UV, Vis, IR, AA, Fluorescence, and NMR spectroscopy. I am unhappy with the presentation of NMR in the course textbook, so I give the students the opportunity to learn from The Basics of NMR. In class, I use select material from the hypertext book as lecture aids. The final way I utilize The Basics of NMR is to bring research and independent study students, who have not taken my course on Pulsed NMR, quickly up to speed on NMR. For example, by having the animations in the hypertext book I do not have to spend as much time at the Whyte Board drawing precessing vectors. > But the biggest question I have, is how do we share work like this? For > traditional writing we have systems in place that assure quality control > and distribution. If this document was written as a conventional paper it > could be submitted to a textbook publisher or JCE, they would send it out > for review, the reviewers would make comments and catch mistakes in the > science, then it would be checked by an editor, it would be typeset. and > the author would check the galley's, and finally it would be widely > distributed. All these steps help to assure a polished and accurate > presentation. First I will share my experience with two web based hypertext books, The Basics of MRI and this one The Basics of NMR. When I finished writing the Basics of MRI I shared it with a few colleagues who provided me with valuable feedback. I then launched it by registering it with the major search engines. At this time I was lucky to have a few readers that acted as knowledgeable editors, finding the little mistakes that seem to slip by when you read your own work for the fiftieth time and sending me an e-mail on it. Luckily these pseudo editors came along before the next 150 thousand viewers saw the mistakes. I still get the occasional e-mail from someone who has found a mistake. The nice thing about the web is that I make the change the same day and post it. I do not deal with errata sheet mailings or waiting for new editions to correct a mistake. The Basics of NMR has had a similar history, but generally comments and changes have come from several individuals over a longer time period. > So how do we accomplish these important functions on-line? Clearly this is > a document that could be used in may courses around the world. The > document is very well done, but how does the casual observer know that (how > do we get quality control). Who helps the author fine tune the document? > And finally, although anyone on the world can get to the web site, how do > we know where to look? If I am looking for ideas on how to teach chemistry > I know to look in J Chem Educ. But how do we do this on the web? Finding information on the web is difficult. Search engines rarely provide me with the information I am looking for. This is probably not the fault of the search engine provider as the author of a site many times has not registered the site and provided key words. The person coding the site should use meta tags to help the search engines, but I must admit that I wrote all of my material before I knew what these were and their benefit. Several scientific databases are springing up on the web that review and catalog scientific sites. They typically only register sites that pass their review. Right now, these sites are typically paid for by advertisers, but this may change. Authors may need to pay to have a site registered. When I see scientific material on the web, I would like it to be accurate, but I do not expect it to be. The web has given us instant access to information and we want it to be instantly usable, often without checking its accuracy. We do not have this degree of perfection with hard copy. I can go to my local bookstore and find recently printed works claiming that aluminum causes Alzheimer's disease and power lines cause cancer. I do not need to be so obvious, we all review textbooks four our courses in part because we are looking for a presentation of the material that agrees with our understanding. The responsibility will always be up to the individual to determine if material is accurate. In part, universities have hired us to do this for our students. Book publishers provide authors with review, editing, layout, marketing, and distribution services. The value of these services to the author is in may cases the reverse of that listed. I pose the following question. Given: * the web provides us with a convenient and free method of distributing and marketing a work, * desktop publishing tools provide color presentation layouts that surpass hard copy in quality and cost, and * e-mail allows us to quickly and inexpensively communicate with reviewers, why are publishers needed? Joseph Hornak ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:22:46 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WVV-P1-questions First I want to say I think your on-line text is excellent. You have done a tremendous job making features offered by the web help explain the principles. Your text communicates dynamic ideas better than any hard copy text ever could. A few short questions. 1. Do you know if any of the sophomore organic chemistry students use the text? 2. Do you see a place for some of the content in the General Chemistry series? 3. How much time have you devoted to developing the NMR book on-line? 4. Did you do the work with department support or did you do it on your own time? 5. Do your students have a tendency to download hard copies of the text? I've found many of my students do just that. Sometimes my students seem to look right past the interactive features of the web. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:25:32 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WV-RE -WFP-Diatomic cost & CD-ROM Hello everyone, Bill, Sorry this message got lost temporarily. I think the price for the new version of Diatomic is high considering the basic nature of the original program. Even at that, I think the price is acceptable because the cost could be amoratized over many classes. I'm assuming it would be used for 3 or 4 classes each year and for 2-3 years. Diatomic can also be used when discussing Boltzmann distributions. So it serves a variety of purposes. I wanted to add a comment about the Saunders "Interactive General Chemistry" CD-ROM. This accompanies the General Chemistry text by Kotz & Treichel. The CD-ROM has a series of simplified IR related materials. The CD-ROM has a small library of IR spectra. These are interactive and can be used to identify motions related to the absorption bands. The user can click on the band in the spectrum and see a set of vectors projected on a ball and stick model. These are supposed to show the motions that are responsible for the band. It is pretty cheap and useful. Walt Walt Volland Department of Chemistry Bellevue Community College Bellevue, Washington 98007 425-641-2467 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:54:26 -0500 From: Joseph Hornak Subject: Re: WVV-P1-questions Walt, Thank you for the kind words. Please see below for my answers. Joe Hornak Walt Volland wrote: > First I want to say I think your on-line text is excellent. You have > done a tremendous job making features offered by the web help explain > the principles. > Your text communicates dynamic ideas better than any hard copy text > ever could. > > A few short questions. > > 1. Do you know if any of the sophomore organic chemistry students use > > the text? Students in our organic chemistry classes are aware of the material and use it as a reference. > 2. Do you see a place for some of the content in the General > Chemistry > series? There is material in this hypertext book that can be of value in general chemistry. At RIT, we do not use in General Chemistry. Some schools, such as Utica College (See William Pfeiffer's 4 Nov. 99 e-mail.), that give their students hands-on NMR experience in the first year could make use of it. > 3. How much time have you devoted to developing the NMR book on-line? It took approximately six months of my spare time to write the text, construct the animations & drawings, and code in html. > 4. Did you do the work with department support or did you do it on > your own time? I did not receive institutional support for the work. > 5. Do your students have a tendency to download hard copies of the > text? I've found many of my students do just that. Sometimes my > students seem to look right past the interactive features of the web. Yes, some of my students print out a hard copy. I was also puzzled by this behavior as I felt it defeated the greatest benefit of the book, the animations. When I asked why, I learned that some students also need hard copy and the ability to highlight text in order to learn. > Walt > > Walt Volland > Department of Chemistry > Bellevue Community College > Bellevue, Washington 98007 > 425-641-2467 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:32:33 -0500 From: "Diane Krone" Subject: Chemistry Place The Vice Principal at my school told me today that he has money in his budget so that the chemistry teachers and their students could subscribe to the Chemistry Place. He said that a yearly subscription would cost about $500. Does anyone on this list subscribe to The Chemistry Place and is it worth the money? Do you and your students get much information from this site? I would appreciate the opinions from anyone who has used the site . Thanks, Diane Diane Krone Northern Highlands Regional High School Allendale, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 01:13:37 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: Re: Chemistry Place We don't subscribe. at Bellevue Community College. The $500 seems extremely high. I teach an on-line class and there are many others out there that are accessible. Take a look at http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/wv/101-online.html Walt Volland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:41:39 -0500 From: Scott Van Bramer Subject: Re: SVB: Creative ideas, organic chemistry At 01:04 PM 11/1/99 , Kimberley Cousins wrote: >There are results from a survey of ACS degree departments on teaching >spectroscopy in organic lectures and labs, as well as an accompanying >paper on a less time consuming approach in a recent J Chem Educ. This >issue also have a significant number of other spectroscopy papers (across >the curriculum). sorry can't locate my copy for a full citation. From the JCE Web site at: http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/Journal/Issues/1999/Sep/abs1294.html Citation: Alexander, Christopher W.; Asleson, Gary L.; Doig, Marion T.; Heldrich, Frederick J. Spectroscopic Instruction in Introductory Organic Chemistry: Results of a National Survey J. Chem. Educ. 1999 76 1294. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:24:37 -0500 From: george long Subject: GRL: Re: SVB P1-questions - ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Hornak To: confchem@mail.clarkson.edu Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 1:05 PM Subject: Re: SVB P1-questions But the biggest question I have, is how do we share work like this? For traditional writing we have systems in place that assure quality control and distribution. If this document was written as a conventional paper it could be submitted to a textbook publisher or JCE, they would send it out for review, the reviewers would make comments and catch mistakes in the science, then it would be checked by an editor, it would be typeset. and the author would check the galley's, and finally it would be widely distributed. All these steps help to assure a polished and accurate presentation. GRL> I am not sure we can replace editorial services. At the anaheim meeting, I heard figures as high as 80% of the cost of a journal attributed to fixed editorial costs, though so cost savings by putting material on-line that is still reviewed and edited is not that high. Perhaps the only alternative are actually conferences like these where a relatively large number of participants can be called on as reviewers. The disadvantage I see is that we are not anonymous, and so the comments are often tame (though not always :o) ). Perhaps a website where material could be posted and discussed anonymously would be worthwhile. I guess in principle, I could use a pseudonym while participating in this conference, but there is a danger in being too anonymous - ever read the messages to alt.conspiracy ??. There would need to be some way to insure a little civility and responsibility for ones comments. Fundamentally though this has the oppurtunity to wrestle control of the published literature away from the big publishing houses, and organizations. The other danger is that the major universities gain control of the scientific literature. I have heard that some major universities are considering not relinquishing copyright from material their faculty produce. ************************************************** Dr. George R. Long Department of Chemistry Indiana Univ. of PA Indiana, PA http://wey238ab.ch.iup.edu/grlong/ grlong@grove.iup.edu ***************************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:11:42 -0500 From: Theresa Julia Zielinski Subject: Re: WV-RE -WFP-Diatomic cost & CD-ROM Marilyn Here is a message from a gen chem teacher who presents IR in his classes using the Saunders CD. Of course I don't know what the program Diatomic does and right now I don't care too much as there is too much in gen chem already. Theresa At 10:25 PM 11/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >Bill, Sorry this message got lost temporarily. I think the price for >the new version of Diatomic is high >considering the basic nature of the original program. Even at that, >I think the price is acceptable because the >cost could be amoratized over many classes. I'm assuming it would be >used for 3 or 4 classes each year and for 2-3 years. > >Diatomic can also be used when discussing Boltzmann distributions. So >it serves a variety of purposes. > >I wanted to add a comment about the Saunders "Interactive General >Chemistry" CD-ROM. > >This accompanies the General Chemistry text by >Kotz & Treichel. The CD-ROM has a series of simplified IR related >materials. The CD-ROM has a small library of IR spectra. These are >interactive and can be used to identify motions related to the >absorption bands. The user can click on the band in the spectrum >and see a set of vectors projected on a ball and stick model. These are >supposed to show the motions that are responsible for the band. It is >pretty cheap and useful. > >Walt > >Walt Volland >Department of Chemistry >Bellevue Community College >Bellevue, Washington 98007 >425-641-2467 Theresa Julia Zielinski Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry, Medical Technology, and Physics Edison Science Hall Room E245 Monmouth University West Long Branch, NJ 07764-1898 Tel: (732)263-5197 Fax: (732)263-5213 tzielins@monmouth.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:19:45 -0700 From: Patty Subject: The basics of NMR I was pleased to find Joseph Hornak's NMR text online. I'm surprised I had not found it before, although I link to his MRI page on another of my sites. Besides being a fantastic resource for NMR theory, it illustrates how much an author can do online that cannot be done in a hard-copy text. I am so glad it's online and available to all and not for sale and only available to a few. *How useful would these materials be for courses that you teach? Most of these materials are more appropriate for our upper division spectroscopy courses than our sophomore level organic chemistry course (the course that the pre-meds take). There is more detail, physics, and math than most of our students are able/willing to absorb. But I strongly feel that this information should be available to the few sophomore organic students who need and understand this level of detail. Therefore, it's availability online is perfect. *What portions of the book would be most useful for your students? Sections of chapters 1-5, 7 and 8. *What portions of the book would be least useful for your students? Chapters 10 and 11. *What additional information would your students like to have? Unfortunately, our students have to focus on the practicalities of NMR. We have to start with the basics. As in, when they view their first NMR spectrum, they think that the peaks are either responses like from a GC trace, or peaks due to absorbance like IR. First we have to train them what the peaks mean, what their placement in the spectrum means, and what splitting means. Not in math terms, in practical terms. We lose them when we go into too much detail at first. So what we need is a more basic approach, clues to what simple and then more complex spectrums mean in the simplest terms, and then lots and lots of practice. Unfortunately again, our students do not have direct access to the NMR instruments at our institution. Since we are a research university, the teaching labs are expected to "share" the department's NMRs rather than "own" our own. The NMR facility is rather tightly run, and although we have are about 6 300-600 mHz instruments, the undergraduate organic chem students are not allowed to use them directly. Thus, their interest is not piqued. We do usher our chem majors (35/semester) into the NMR facility and have them work up their own spectra at remote X-terms. Now that I am aware of Hornak's basic NMR online text, I will make my teaching assistants aware of its existence, and encourage them to incorporate applicable chapters in their two-hour recitation on NMR. (We have mobile computers and LCDs to bring web pages to the different classrooms.) Plus I'll make sure that the upper division instructors know about it. Patty Feist Coordinator for Organic Chemistry http://orgchem.colorado.edu/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:44:20 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Pendarvis Subject: Re: Chemistry Place On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Diane Krone wrote: > The Vice Principal at my school told me today that he has money in his > budget so that the chemistry teachers and their students could subscribe to > the Chemistry Place. He said that a yearly subscription would cost about > $500. > > Does anyone on this list subscribe to The Chemistry Place and is it worth > the money? Do you and your students get much information from this site? > > I would appreciate the opinions from anyone who has used the site . > > Thanks, > Diane > > Diane Krone > Northern Highlands Regional High School > Allendale, NJ We get chemistry place for free from our Gen. Chem. text publisher Houghton Miflin. It is pretty good for HS level students and provides some really nice activities. On the other hand, most of the activities do not have any sort of assesment component. This is unfortunate because I think a lot of students could benefit. The reality is "non credit, forget it". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:01:00 -0400 From: Scott Van Bramer Subject: SVB: Paper 2, questions Questions about paper 2 "Making Connections Between Spectroscopy and General Chemistry. A Series of Practical Exercises" First, I have a question to ask everyone. Please share the creative ideas that you have about how to use spectroscopy in general chemistry? Walt, You discussed a variety of programs that you use with your general chemistry class. Do you use them during your lecture or do you assign students to work with them? For the laboratory project where students are actually using the software, how do you handle the logistics? It seems like incorporating more spectroscopy into the bonding chapters in general chemistry would help answer the student's question "how do you know it is like this". Have you found that to be the case? Respectfully, Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Widener University, Chester, PA 19013 svanbram@science.widener.edu http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:00:00 -0400 From: Scott Van Bramer Subject: SVB: Begin Paper 2 discussion Good Morning, Today is Wednesday November 10 and it is time to open discussion for Paper #2. "Making Connections Between Spectroscopy and General Chemistry. A Series of Practical Exercises" by Walt Volland (wvolland@bcc.ctc.edu), Bellevue Community College. The paper is available on the ConfChem website at: http://www.ched-ccce.org/confchem/1999/d/ Respectfully, Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Widener University, Chester, PA 19013 svanbram@science.widener.edu http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:15:54 -0500 From: Richard Pendarvis Subject: ROP: Re: SVB P1-questions > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joseph Hornak > To: confchem@mail.clarkson.edu > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: SVB P1-questions > > But the biggest question I have, is how do we share work like this? For > traditional writing we have systems in place that assure quality control > and distribution. If this document was written as a conventional paper it > could be submitted to a textbook publisher or JCE, they would send it out > for review, the reviewers would make comments and catch mistakes in the > science, then it would be checked by an editor, it would be typeset. and > the author would check the galley's, and finally it would be widely > distributed. All these steps help to assure a polished and accurate > presentation. Actually, THE CHEMICAL EDUCATOR (http://journals.springer-ny.com/chedr) has been doing this for years. All submissions are peer reviewed; many are interactive and/or contain supplemental software etc. #include - - Organic Chemistry Richard Pendarvis, Ph.D. | | CAI Programming Central Florida Community College, Ocala, FL 32608 / \ Doberman Pinschers EMAIL: pendarvr@cfcc.cc.fl.us or afn02809@afn.org (_____) Star Trek http://www.tfn.net/~pendarr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:33:38 -0500 From: Scott Van Bramer Subject: Re: spectral database Although the following is not exactly on point for this paper, I thought that the list participants might be interested in the following. I expect that this is a great resource for teaching spectroscopy. > Chemical Concepts is launching SpecInfo on the Internet, a new member of > SpecInfo Universe product line. The world's largest spectral data > collection with over 660 000 NMR, IR and MS spectra can now be accessed by > using an Internet browser only. As an introduction to the system, I would > like to invite you to a free-of-charge trial for 30 days in November and > December 1999. > > SpecInfo on the Internet features include: > > ability to read in your experimental data > spectrum similarity search > zooming and printing of spectra > structure drawing > structure identity and substructure search > search for name, molecular formula or weight ranges > prediction of NMR shifts for 13C, 19F, 31P and others > estimation of 1H-NMR shifts > display of physical data, CAS Registry No, experimental conditions... > > To find out more and access SpecInfo on the Internet, please visit our home > pages at: > > www.chemicalconcepts.com Respectfully, Scott Van Bramer Department of Chemistry Widener University, Chester, PA 19013 svanbram@science.widener.edu http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:33:14 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WVV- Re: SVB: Paper 2, questions Scott Van Bramer wrote: > Walt, > You discussed a variety of programs that you use with your general > chemistry class. Do you use them during your lecture or do you assign > students to work with them? I do both. I have a number of options for using the software. I can use them in our classroom because we have projection equipment for the cpu. I have a "computer lab" available that seats 30 students with a cpu for each student. Some software I use during lectures to make a point. Other times I take the discussion groups to the computer lab when they have to do an assignment. This gives them a chance to get a hands on orientation to the software and try things on their own. We do this during the time set aside for discussions. > For the laboratory project where students are actually using the software, > how do you handle the logistics? We typically make a trip to the computer lab. We have enough cpus (30) and an Infocus computer projector there. This allows me to introduce the students to the software. We go over the basics of the application that they are using in the assignment. I give the class hard copy instructions for the "lab' and they have a week or more to schedule their work. The computer lab is available daily (7 days) and from 8 am till 8 pm. They turn in a hard copy lab "report". Some assignments are short and take about three days.. Others are more involved and are part of projects that are done over a three week period. This latter type assignment has used a combination of programs, Cambridge Scientific's Chem 3D, nmr similator programs and a programs like the ACS Acid-base titration software, etc. I answer questions about the software if there are problems during the time they have for the assignment. Usually the one visit is adequate for the orientation. It is surprising how quickly the classes adapt to using the software. There are some students who object but they are in the minority. > It seems like incorporating more spectroscopy into the bonding chapters in > general chemistry would help answer the student's question "how do you know > it is like this". Have you found that to be the case? Yes, they do like the fact that they can see experimental data and methods for determining molecular structures. The students generally have fun using the computers for almost any purpose. They also seem to enjoy going into more detail about structure and bonding. They really like the idea that there are valid reasons and data behind the structures they see in the texts. > Respectfully, > > Scott Van Bramer > Department of Chemistry > Widener University, Chester, PA 19013 > svanbram@science.widener.edu > http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:50:34 -0500 From: Brian Tissue Subject: BT: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry Walt, An outreach program here might start taking instruments, including uv-vis absorption spectrometers and an FTIR spectrometer, to rural high schools. Based on your experience in General Chemistry, please comment on using spectroscopy in the high school curriculum. Thanks! Brian Tissue Virginia Tech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:53:35 -0600 From: "Trammell, Gary" Subject: RE: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry We have a partnership with UIS, Western Illinois University, and Knox College to operate a Secondary Chemistry Instrumentation Laboratory (SCIL). This program has been funded through the Eisenhower Program and the Illinois Board of Higher Education. We bring in teachers from our area for week-long workshops for training in instrumentation, hands-on activities, and new pedagogy. As part of this program we have a set of 10 Spec 20's that are available for use at our campus or on loan to high school teachers. We also use the Vernier colorimeters and CBL's. This program has been very successful. Each summer about 60 teachers participate and about 1500 students use our facilities each year. More information can by found at our web site (http://www.uis.edu/~trammell/scil/web/contents.htm). Gary Dr. Gary Trammell Chemistry Program, HSB 313 University of Illinois at Springfield PO Box 19243 Springfield, IL 62794-9243 (217) 206-7344 (voice) (217) 206-7188 (fax) trammell.gary@uis.edu -----Original Message----- From: Brian Tissue [mailto:tissue@vt.edu] Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 8:51 AM To: 'confchem@clarkson.edu' Subject: BT: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry Walt, An outreach program here might start taking instruments, including uv-vis absorption spectrometers and an FTIR spectrometer, to rural high schools. Based on your experience in General Chemistry, please comment on using spectroscopy in the high school curriculum. Thanks! Brian Tissue Virginia Tech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:25:59 -0600 From: "Tony Wallner" Subject: TSW: Paper 2 , Spectroscopy in High School chem Walt, I am also interested in instruments in the high school curriculum. We are planning a summer high school teacher workshop this summer. Part of the follow up will entail teachers doing prep work at their high school and then coming to our campus on a Saturday to use the instruments for data collection. Analysis will be done at their high school afterwards. WE are planning GCMS, IR, NMR, and AA. Tony ================================================================ Tony S. Wallner, Ph.D. (816)271-4391 Associate Professor of Chemistry wallner@griffon.mwsc.edu Missouri Western State College "Il faut cultiver notre jardin"- St.Joseph, MO 64507 Voltaire ================================================================ - -----Original Message----- From: confchem-owner@clarkson.edu [mailto:confchem-owner@clarkson.edu] On Behalf Of Brian Tissue Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 8:51 AM To: 'confchem@clarkson.edu' Subject: BT: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry Walt, An outreach program here might start taking instruments, including uv-vis absorption spectrometers and an FTIR spectrometer, to rural high schools. Based on your experience in General Chemistry, please comment on using spectroscopy in the high school curriculum. Thanks! Brian Tissue Virginia Tech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:03:39 -0500 From: Gwen Sibert Subject: TSW: Paper 2 , Spectroscopy in High School chem Tony and others planning workshops for HS teachers, You might contact the faculty at either Roanoke College or the University of Richmond to see what they have done in the way of workshops utilizing spectroscopy. The person at Roanoke College to contact would be Jack Steehler (jsteehler@roanoke.edu) and at Richmond it would be Bill Myers (wmyers@richmond.edu). Roanoke College has conducted workshops on three different occasions where teachers would bring in a couple of students and do labs on 2-4 different instruments of their choosing (from AA, UV-VIS, NMR, GC-MS, FTIR and a couple of other types of instruments). The teachers got a small stipend and all the participants received a tee-shirt and lunch. Funding was from Roanoke College and the Virginia Blue Ridge Section, ACS. The workshop at Richmond was called the "Structure Elucidation Workshop" and was held on a Friday evening and all day on the following Saturday. I felt both workshops were excellent and all of the students I invited to take part in them got a lot out of them, too. I have a unit on spectroscopy and one on chromatography that I teach in the spring. You can see what I include in each unit by going to http://www.chem.vt.edu/RVGS/ACT/comp_99-00.html and looking at competencies #16-18 and #25. The experiments I do related to spectroscopy can be found at http://www.chem.vt.edu/RVGS/ACT/lab/Experiments/RVGS-Experiments_98.html (Experiments 11, 13 and 17). Reply to Tony who wrote: I am also interested in instruments in the high school curriculum. We are planning a summer high school teacher workshop this summer. Part of the follow up will entail teachers doing prep work at their high school and then coming to our campus on a Saturday to use the instruments for data collection. Analysis will be done at their high school afterwards. WE are planning GCMS, IR, NMR, and AA. Tony ================================================================ Tony S. Wallner, Ph.D. (816)271-4391 Associate Professor of Chemistry wallner@griffon.mwsc.edu Missouri Western State College "Il faut cultiver notre jardin"- St.Joseph, MO 64507 Voltaire ================================================================ Gwen Sibert Chemistry Roanoke Valley Governor's School 2104 Grandin Road, SW Roanoke, VA 24015 Phone: 540-853-2116 Fax: 540-853-1056 gsibert@rvgs.k12.va.us http://www.chem.vt.edu/RVGS/RVGS-home.html Life is a Chemical Reaction! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 99 16:31:04 EST From: Donald Rosenthal Subject: P2 JK: Industry Connections - FORWARDED MESSAGE FORWARD MESSAGE (sent from an e-mail address different from the address used to register to CONFCHEM) From: jkenkel@sccm.cc.ne.us To: confchem@mail.clarkson.edu Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:33:36 -0600 Subject: P2 industry connections In his paper, Walt states: This means will only see chemistry through a General Chemistry window. Their vision of chemistry will be forever shaped by their experience in General Chemistry. To me this means General Chemistry students need more than the traditional emphasis on basic atomic structure, stoichiometry, gas laws, and equilibrium calculations." So Walt's suggestion is to introduce spectroscopy into the curriculum. I agree, and this idea is in line with my past suggestion to make the course more industry-based so that students (the future citizens) can have a better feel for what chemists do in the real world of work. Spectroscopy is one of the most visible topics in the ACS's voluntary industry standards document ( the document which provides the basis for an industry-based curriculum). More than half of the section devoted to instrumental analysis is comprised of such subtopics as principles of spectroscopy, UV-VIS, IR, MS, NMR, X-ray fluorescence, atomic emission, atomic absorption, calibration and troubleshooting. There are 104 competencies related to spectroscopy in this document - I believe more than any other general topic. So I applaud Walt and others who bring more spectroscopy into the curriculum, especially if you make the industry connection, because this helps gen chem students broaden their vision of chemistry to what chemistry professionals do in the workplace, which I think is very important to bolster the low opinion people have for our career field. John Kenkel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:00:39 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WV-Re: BT: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry Brian, The outreach program sounds very attractive and practical. I like the idea of putting the instrumentation in front of people. I have thought about a similar program out here even though we are an urban area. I think a short orientation workshop for interested high school faculty is essential. The workshop could be set up for a few days at the university. The high school faculty should be familiar enough with the equipment so that they can have an active role in working with their students. The high school instructors need to be partners. It would be a big plus if the high school teachers received upper division credit from Virginia Tech for their participation in the workshop. In Washington high school teachers need to accumulate credits beyond the BA for additional certification and can only count upperdivision and graduate credits. If this is also the case in Virginia, you might get better participation with 1-2 credits granted for the workshop. I would also suggest extending the invitation to high school teachers of biology and maybe physics, as well as chemistry. Here, it is likely that the high school chemistry course will be taught by a biologist rather than by anyone with a major concentration in chemistry, let alone someone with a degree in chemistry. This is attractive because there is a great deal of interest in interdisciplinary work. I think the high school students would be very excited to have access to the instrumentation. I recommend two kinds of experiments. One type would be structure related and the other would be analytical. You might say these would be qualitative and quantitative. I believe the uv-vis would be easy to integrate into the high school curriculum. A variety of experiments are possible. A Beer's law experiment, a photometeric titration, an equilibrium constant study, or a kinetics lab all could be done. These could even be based on samples taken from the immediate area of the high school. The FTIR offers a terrific way to introduce students to identification methods and to how structure can be determined. The present curriculum for high schools and most General Chemistry tends to rely on gravimetric methods and not use spectroscopic ones. This leaves out most of the modern techniques. The outreach program would help bring a more modern perspective to the high school students. Walt Brian Tissue wrote: Walt, An outreach program here might start taking instruments, including uv-vis absorption spectrometers and an FTIR spectrometer, to rural high schools. Based on your experience in General Chemistry, please comment on using spectroscopy in the high school curriculum. Thanks! Brian Tissue Virginia Tech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:20:08 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WV- Re: GT- Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry Gary, Your program sounds like a great success. It shows that it is practical to incorporate spectroscopy based activities into the high school curriculum. If the high school curriculum can be altered to accept spectroscopy activities, I believe that the college curriculum can be too. The already full General Chemistry curriculm doesn't need to be stretched to "add" something. The methods and types of data collected need to be modernized. General Chemistry can be updated to benefit students and make it more interesting and relevant. Walt "Trammell, Gary" wrote: > We have a partnership with UIS, Western Illinois University, and Knox > College to operate a Secondary Chemistry Instrumentation Laboratory (SCIL). > This program has been funded through the Eisenhower Program and the Illinois > Board of Higher Education. We bring in teachers from our area for week-long > workshops for training in instrumentation, hands-on activities, and new > pedagogy. As part of this program we have a set of 10 Spec 20's that are > available for use at our campus or on loan to high school teachers. We also > use the Vernier colorimeters and CBL's. This program has been very > successful. Each summer about 60 teachers participate and about 1500 > students use our facilities each year. More information can by found at our > web site (http://www.uis.edu/~trammell/scil/web/contents.htm). > > Gary > > Dr. Gary Trammell > Chemistry Program, HSB 313 > University of Illinois at Springfield > PO Box 19243 > Springfield, IL 62794-9243 > (217) 206-7344 (voice) > (217) 206-7188 (fax) > trammell.gary@uis.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Tissue [mailto:tissue@vt.edu] > Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 8:51 AM > To: 'confchem@clarkson.edu' > Subject: BT: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry > > Walt, > An outreach program here might start taking instruments, including uv-vis > absorption spectrometers and an FTIR spectrometer, to rural high schools. > Based on your experience in General Chemistry, please comment on using > spectroscopy in the high school curriculum. Thanks! > Brian Tissue > Virginia Tech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:36:29 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WV-Re: TSW: Paper 2 , Spectroscopy in High School chem Tony, When you get such large numbers of high school faculty to participate in a week long workshop you are doing a great job of recruiting. Are the faculty getting upper division course credit? The program sounds like it will be very popular. It strikes me that there a great number of people who are using instrumentation and spectroscopic data. I don't understand what is holding down the acceptance and inclusion of these same ideas in General Chemistry. If high school teachers, students and their curriculum can cope with "new" material using spectroscopy I don't see why can't the college faculty, students and the General Chemistry curriculum adjust. Walt Tony Wallner wrote: > Walt, > > I am also interested in instruments in the high school curriculum. We are > planning a summer high school teacher workshop this summer. Part of the > follow up will entail teachers doing prep work at their high school and then > coming to our campus on a Saturday to use the instruments for data > collection. Analysis will be done at their high school afterwards. WE are > planning GCMS, IR, NMR, and AA. > > Tony > ================================================================ > Tony S. Wallner, Ph.D. (816)271-4391 > Associate Professor of Chemistry wallner@griffon.mwsc.edu > Missouri Western State College "Il faut cultiver notre jardin"- > St.Joseph, MO 64507 Voltaire > ================================================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: confchem-owner@clarkson.edu [mailto:confchem-owner@clarkson.edu] On > Behalf Of Brian Tissue > Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 8:51 AM > To: 'confchem@clarkson.edu' > Subject: BT: Paper 2, spectroscopy in high school chemistry > > Walt, > An outreach program here might start taking instruments, including uv-vis > absorption spectrometers and an FTIR spectrometer, to rural high schools. > Based on your experience in General Chemistry, please comment on using > spectroscopy in the high school curriculum. Thanks! > Brian Tissue > Virginia Tech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:59:30 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WV- GS-TSW: Paper 2 , Spectroscopy in High School chem Gwen, The workshops at Roanoke College and Richmond College sound like great experiences for the faculty and students alike. Did the high school students who participated go on to take General Chemistry at the university level? The high school students would have more experience coming out of high school than a college science major would after completing a typical year of General Chemistry. It bothers me that the General Chemistry college curriculum is not in keeping with the work of modern chemistry. The high schools may be more adaptable than the colleges and universities. Walt Gwen Sibert wrote: > Tony and others planning workshops for HS teachers, > > The person at Roanoke College to contact would be Jack Steehler > (jsteehler@roanoke.edu) and at Richmond it would be Bill Myers > (wmyers@richmond.edu). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:03:35 -0800 From: Walt Volland Subject: WV-Re: P2 JK: Industry Connections - FORWARDED MESSAGE John, Thanks for your comments. It is clear to me that the General Chemistry curriculum hasn't evolved much since the 1940-50s. The majority of texts focus on the gravimetric side of data. There are separate projects around the country that include instrumentation and spectroscopy, but overall the basic content still is centered around the gravimetric methods of the turn of the century. It seems incongruous that we are going into the 21st century, using cpus, remote sensors, the internet etc., and still basing the core of our General Chemistry on methodology and techniques that date back to the 19th century. Walt >So Walt's suggestion is to introduce spectroscopy into the curriculum. I agree, >and this idea is in line with my past suggestion to make the course more >industry-based so that students (the future citizens) can have a better feel for >what chemists do in the real world of work. Spectroscopy is one of the most >visible topics in the ACS's voluntary industry standards document ( the >document which provides the basis for an industry-based curriculum). More than >half of the section devoted to instrumental analysis is comprised of such >subtopics as principles of spectroscopy, UV-VIS, IR, MS, NMR, X-ray >fluorescence, atomic emission, atomic absorption, calibration and >troubleshooting. There are 104 competencies related to spectroscopy in this >document - I believe more than any other general topic. > >So I applaud Walt and others who bring more spectroscopy into the curriculum, >especially if you make the industry connection, because this helps gen chem >students broaden their vision of chemistry to what chemistry professionals do in >the workplace, which I think is very important to bolster the low opinion people >have for our career field. > >John Kenkel --------------------------- END OF DOCUMENT ---------------------------------- -------- Prepared by B. Tissue 11/14/99. Edited to reduce file size. ---------